I heard that back in the days, people used to just go when their work was done on the farms and there was no concept of 9-5 (these days seem 24 hours work). There used to be a lot of holidays. Is that true? If it is, then given the abundance in technology, why our work hours increased and why do we have such weird lives that we live to work?
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Capitalism
Are there any other systems, or point in history, where a country’s population could live without working?
A handy word that means so little it’s never wrong.
Bingo. Sort of. It includes a lot, to go with the massive breadth that the question entails.
An interesting response, thank you.
So you feel like it’s worth pointing out, even if it’s that massively broad? You could have used a few more words, if you wanted.
The people who do work don’t keep the profits of work. People who “own” stuff do.
You have a guy who “owns” a factory. He pays some dudes to make widgets, market widgets, sell widgets. They all get $10 a day. They sell $200 of widgets a day. The guy who owns the operation, who’s probably just sitting at home, keeps all those profits. Capitalism.
The workers decide they want more rights. Get paid in real money. Sick time. 8 hour days. Owner says nah. Workers go on strike. Owner gets the police or the army to break the strike with violence. Arrest any leaders they survive. Historical context of capitalism.
Also the guy who owns the factory, maybe he just got it because his grand dad was friends with the king or something. Maybe they killed some natives and the state said the land is yours now.
Okay, so the classical Marxist definition. If we could be sure that’s what’s implied, there’d be more to talk about.
The problem being, there’s tons of other definitions with just as much currency. Big corporations (but not small businesses), having free markets, having anyone control a factory in any way, and just the act of thinking about things as commodities are all senses that it’s used in, as well.
Lots of working also applies, in some/many cases, to periods Marx would have called pre-capitalist, so the Marxist definition isn’t what OP meant.
You could say the same of history if you know nothing about it
That suggests the problem is people don’t have any experience with capitalism, doesn’t it? Whatever it means to the person using the word, it’s always a system we live in, or somewhat live in.
The issue is the term is meaningless if it isn’t grounded in history. If it simply means “the system you live in” then it says nothing of how it came to be and what can come after.
Sure, but there’s no historical context there whatsoever, or even a present-day framing to narrow it down. The main thing it achieves, as a one-word response, is declaring a kind of tribal allegiance.
If you’ve clearly defined you mean “any market-based system” or “a system which no longer has a landed aristocracy”, among the many other possibilities, then sure, it’s not worth being a pedant about the exact word used. (Although, any conversation is more likely to be productive if you just say what you mean, instead)
Yes, using the word “capitalism” is a signifier, but I wouldn’t say it’s counterproductive. Based on a person’s response you can quickly conclude whether they have the historical context to understand the critique. Defining capitalism as “a market-based” system is ahistorical , markets existed before capitalism. It is very hard to surface the critique while also writing a wall of text that describes how capitalism came to be and how it was later moderated
No, tribal signifiers are dumb and easy to fake. Ask anyone who’s infiltrated the far right.
The concept of 9-5, 5 days a week is exclusively from Unions and organized labour.
As are the ideas of workers rights, any kind of safety regulation, minimum wages, paid days off(holidays and vacation).
These ideas are going away because we forgot that Unions are critical to the idea of a middle class.
Even the one who are not identified as labors like IT guys, xyz engineers, they have a lot of pressure and the shitty corporate culture.
We need to fix this definition because it is wrong. Labor is anyone who gets paid to work. As opposed to Capital who makes money off of owning stuff.
IT guys, engineers, doctors are labor unless they literally own the company.
We? Sucks to be you but that doesn’t apply everywhere.
A lot of it is cultural. Capitalism continues to exploit people not just because of the machinations of a few people at the top, but also because there are many people who have so deeply internalised the logic of capitalism that they are reinforce and perpetuate their own oppression.
A phrase that I’ve found really useful in understanding this is “cultural hegemony”. This theory was originally developed in the early 1900s by the Marxist philosopher, Antonio Gramsci. It’s a pretty dense bit of political theory that I don’t feel like I understand well enough to explain well, but I’ll attempt to give the gist of it
The key thing about cultural hegemony is that it makes the dominant political ideology seem like it’s natural and inevitable. We see this when people recognise the awfulness of their working or living conditions, but then shrug it off by saying “that’s just life”. They can’t imagine any alternative. I see it a lot in my daily life when people see the crafts I make and say “wow, that’s so good, you should sell those” — people are conditioned to only see value in terms of monetary value.
I am South Asian and that “that’s just life or fate” attitude is common where I live.
I don’t know about you, but for me, work is the side-quest.
Yeah, but the trade off was that you were bound to the land and social hierarchy was much more rigidly enforced. Your pay was mostly in food and accommodations unless you were in a trade, nobility, or the clergy.
Why do people work more? Because in an industrial setting, the methods of compensation and employer responsibilities are vastly different. Employers are incentivized to treat labor as any other good and will try to lower that cost where possible. In contrast, if you’re a form of bondage, your employer is more likely to treat you like capital.
what is the bondage example?
Various forms of serfdom.
Because the people who own everything aren’t being slaughtered in the streets.
Are you South Asian? This extreme mentality I only found in South Asians being a South Asian myself.
eat the rich? I think it’s getting fame all around the world
Not that but the way you are eating rich. The slaughter thing is quite brutal and against human rights.
The daily systemic violence of capitalism and imperialism is far worse than the revolutionary means to end it.
But it will never happen cuz you know whenever a country tries to be a socialist economy, Uncle Sam buys people from that country and always make sure to not let that happen. As long as there is Uncle Sam, world can never have a socialist economy.
There are several socialist countries already. The US’s time as the unipolar hegemon are quickly fading, the US cannot even win against Iran. As the global south develops economically and gains its own footing, and the US gradually decays, we see more openings for additional socialist countries. No system is ever static, no empire lasts forever.
for example? USSR is no more China is state capitalist Scandinavian countries are welfare states?
Lemmy people are their own very specific kind of person.
indeed. If I were not banned on Reddit, I would not come here.
Being self employed helps. My workday doesn’t end at set time - it ends when I’m done. Sometimes that’s 10am, sometimes 7pm. Then if I feel like I’ve worked too much and could use a vacation I just don’t schedule any work for the rest of the week/next few weeks.
Now don’t get me wrong, I do work a lot but it doesn’t feel like work really because I have total control of everything I do and I’m doing exactly what I want to be doing. What also helps is that I manipulate the physical world - not bits on a computer. When I’m done I can see what I’ve built and on top of all that I get genuine gratitude for it. Lots of it actually - people are awesome.
Aren’t you slave to your customers instead of your boss though ? Can you really afford to just close the door and go sunny side of your want to?
Yes, in a way, but on the other hand, time invested benefits them, not their boss. They own their means of production.
Yeah true that. Well possibly at least. They do own their skills at least. The rest is possibly rentals :-/
The rest is possibly rentals :-/
Nope. Even the truck’s paid off.
Farms had a lot more work than just 9-5. Labor unions fought very hard, and many paid with their lives, to get work hours restricted to 9-5.
Not true. For most of human existence we worked on average like 4h a day. More on harvest and sowing season, practically nothing during the rest of the year.
And before agriculture, we didn’t really work like that. You did stuff all day, mixed in with a lot of socializing and resting. But no one had a job and people didn’t need to spend x amount of time doing y.
So not sure what you mean by this. The idea that humans live to work is exclusively a product of the Industrial Revolution.
Man, I get where you’re coming from, it all seems endless and stupid.
I was just thinking about this the other day in fact, but then imagined what life was like as a hunter gatherer. The search never stops for food, there is rarely an abundance, and nothing to keep that abundance from rotting away when you have it.
Every creation we’ve ever made is to simplify our lives and/or to protect them. Building those things increase abundance and leisure time for awhile, but then the birth rate goes up and we need to build more. Building better communication (to simplify our lives) meant that more people from farther away need stuff, so we need to increase production, so more workers are required. It’s a feedback loop.
Some world events pause or reverse this loop for awhile, but it never stops. If you want these things that help around the house so you don’t have to do them, that costs money, so you work.
I’ve seen stories of people who just move out to the woods for decades, but though they are ‘independent’ from the man, they’re still struggling day to day and often end up stealing stuff that others bought so they can get by, or relying on common taxpayer services when things go awry.
I think it’s simply a part of the universe. I learned once that life isn’t the opposite of entropy, it’s a small opposing force that itself decays. Something something rage against the dying of the light. Anyway, /rantoff
There is a difference between doing what is necessary to live and performing nonsense jobs and constant microtasks. We don’t have employment, we have an unnecessary and forced means of constant torture and forced compliance with ridiculous norms. I hate every job I’ve ever had. It’s not because I’m lazy, it’s because it is forced, invisible prison bullshit and I want to be free.
