I’d link to some blog posts about this an example, but the site they’re from went down a while ago.
At risk of giving anyone ideas, why do LLM training scrapers request pages from sites millions of times per day instead of just doing the equivalent of wget -r https://example.com/ ? If the point is just stealing things people have written, what do they accomplish by wasting a web host’s resources beyond being an ⊛ to webmasters?
Edit: Let me elaborate. A lot of the answers i’m seeing are just restating the problem without explaining why LLM scrapers are apparently all either coded by idiots or assholes. I know that they’re hitting sites with unreasonable numbers of requests, wasting bandwidth, and making tools like Anubis too important. I know that’s what’s happening. I’m asking why. What they gain from not being even a little intelligent about this.
With all the money and effort (and maybe even brainpower) going into this, surely there’s some explanation beyond incompetence.
But isn’t this how ordinary search crawlers and tools like wget also work? I’ve never heard of them causing these same problems.
Ordinary search crawlers are throttled and they do stuff like respect your robots.txt and sitemap.xml (directives that tell the crawler what links to scan or not and how frequently). These naive crawlers hit everything at max speed, and on a content-heavy site like lemmy that can easily take out a server.
Why do the AI companies’ crawlers work differently from traditional ones?
It’s not necessarily the big companies themselves doing it? But, there’s a push right now to scrape as much data as possible to feed the training of the AI models, and if your business model is entirely based on selling that data you don’t really care who you’re going to piss off. So, in turn these new scraper bots basically behave in the same way that attack bots do where they’ll be behind VPNs and switch IPs and stuff if you block them.
This is incorrect as you don’t need vertical scaling for broad crawling which by definition is a horizontal operation. So you can slurp the web with a per domain throttle that has a respectful limit. The only pressure is browser cache time as if you’re crawling a domain you want to take advantage of as much cache as possible but modern websites have very long cache times, like days.
So it’s mostly incompetence. Crawling is actually really hard because web is just very complex.
The entire point here is that the bots are being disrespectful.
I’m just correcting you architectural definition. No crawler needs to vertically scale as you define it here and in fact it would be a worse tech for “slurp all data” goal.
The real answer is much more simple - incompetence. The inability to write a good cralwer by leaders in software tech is much damning than anything else. It’s like leading car manufacturers not being able to make the wheels round - it’s just sad.
However this actually shows a much more important problem with the web - we have no way to defer or distribute negative externalities and people have been trying to solve this since the inception of the internet itself. It’ll never be solved but minimized to the point where the impact is just something you tolerate because it’s simply impossible to solve and anyone who tells you otherwise is selling you something.
Source: I’ve been working on similar problems for the last 20 years at least.
You’re not correcting anything, dude.
Whatever, stew in your ignorance then. Bye.
But WTF is the point of scraping the same data over and over multiple times a second before it even has a chance to change? That’s just a waste of resources even on the scrapers’ part, because that bandwidth could be used grabbing some other new page instead!
They’re not trying to do that in particular, but on a site like lemmy the same content might be linked a dozen different ways:
https://lemmy.world/comment/25863752 https://lemmy.world/post/51995780/25862545 https://lemmy.world/post/51995780/25860801 https://lemmy.world/post/51995780/25858204 https://lemmy.world/post/51995780/25857153 https://lemmy.world/post/51995780/25857033
There’s canonical url tag or 3xx redirect so a decent crawler can resolve this and abort duplicate operations.
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Same difference as being hit by a golf cart rolling down a sleight slope and 100 Semi’s going 100mph
The problem isn’t what they’re doing, it’s the speed and depth. There’s no concern for efficiency because they’re not paying for hardware and utilities.
Everything AI is focused on doing asuch as possible as fast as possible, with the hope optimization will happen organically to the point it becomes profitable.
But it won’t.
Correct. Google indexing your web page is rate limited for this reason, and you can even include a directive in your robots.txt to specify your own rate limit if you’d like the intervals to be longer (or shorter). The AI scrapers completely ignore your robots.txt. Except, I am certain, for abusing it as if it were a site map. Anything you list there is simply a target you’ve revealed to them. (“Hey, robots.txt says we shouldn’t crawl /foo/bar.html. That means there’s a page there! Let’s hammer it with 900 page load requests per second!”)