Just so you know where the downvotes and hate are coming from; and for anyone else who doesn’t understand either: “consenting while drunk” is not consent. There’s no ‘regret it later’, since there wasn’t consent - it’s more like ‘feel regret after becoming aware of it’, but even regret is the wrong word. disgusted, violated, furious.
I don’t have immediate access to the evidence, but my understanding is that these men and/or their accomplices intentionally got this woman too drunk to resist. She was unable to competently say yes, but she was also unable to competently say no.
If you think of this and other rape cases stemming from ‘they were drunk and regretted it later’ situations as the fault of the drunk person, please go educate yourself about consent and why being intoxicated precludes it.
Kind of harmful to spread honestly. This is the kind of misinformation that showed up in consent talks 10-15 years ago. It really should be treated with the nuance the subject deserves so people are properly educated.
I don’t have immediate access to the evidence, but my understanding is that these men and/or their accomplices intentionally got this woman too drunk to resist. She was unable to competently say yes, but she was also unable to competently say no.
Both are true. They got her drunk before the first two guys, then after the text inviting the rest of the frat to rape her was sent out, another guy forced her to take ketamine off of his dick.
I don’t know for sure what the facts here were. If she was unable to say yes/no than that is obviously rape. My understanding was that she was able to and did say no to some things (which the guys then did not do) and agreed to others. According to her own statement to the police, which seemed trustworthy to me. If that is what happened, I don’t see how it was rape. If something else happened, than it could be rape.
The police did a poor investigation including not seizing phones, and her statement is lacking detail. As per her statement there’s big memory gaps… you don’t know that she was conscious the entire time. There’s also the snapchat offering her as “free pussy” which even the men haven’t said she agreed to. There’s multiple men, she was outnumbered and heavily under the influence… Consent has to be freely given
you don’t know that she was conscious the entire time.
I don’t. I never claimed I do. But I also don’t tend to say people are criminals based on things that could have happened but I don’t know if happened. I made it clear what facts I was assuming.
There’s also the snapchat offering her as “free pussy” which even the men haven’t said she agreed to.
I didn’t read about this. If there were explicit images of her taken or distributed without consent, that is a crime. Not rape, but a reprehensible crime that they should be imprisoned for.
There’s multiple men, she was outnumbered and heavily under the influence…
The first doesn’t matter (criminally speaking, not making moral judgments here), the second only if she wasn’t able to give consent.
Consent has to be freely given
Yes. But any coercion must actually exist, not just be in your head.
Now I wasn’t there, I don’t know if there was coercion or she passed out or anything else. But I saw nothing so far that would make me believe they raped her, even in the parts of her statement that were released. People should be presumed innocent unless proven guilty and here even the accusers statement doesn’t seem to hold much, let alone any independent evidence.
Do the gaps not raise a concern for you? And even the men don’t say she wanted the snapchat message sent, showing she didn’t consent to being offered. Abd I disagree that multiple men being in the room doesn’t matter, as it creates fear/intimidation.
I am not one of the people who say you can’t possibly give consent while under the influence BUT everyone has the obligation to NOT DO anything to a person that they might not like.
If you fuck a drunk person and than that person says you raped them you did not make sure they were able to really consent.
For this specific case you don’t seem to have the empathy to understand, a person who is so drunk that they were not able to consent in the first place than them saying yes or no to specific acts has like no meaning at all.
If you have ever been blackout drunk you should be able to imagine that saying no or yes really loses all meaning in that situation.
I genuinely need people to explain to me how if a bunch of drunk and high PEOPLE fuck EACH OTHER, it’s only the woman that’s raped, and only the men that are responsible for any drunk actions.
Sex is something, in general, that you do together. Why the hell do you expect a bunch of smart judgement calls from men, but not from the woman? Unless, of course, you subscribe to the patriarchal norms that no woman could ever like “just sex”, and that sex is always something men “inflict” on women.
she wasn’t sober enough to text 9 plus of her guy friends to come in and run on train on those guys who were using with her. They were, because they did just that.
I was pretty wild in my 20s, I went to a lot of parties with a lot of drugs and alcohol and naked people, and things happened, but somehow I never raped anyone. if someone slapped me away, seemed AT ALL annoyed, I moved on, and I certainly didn’t find someone high and horny and responded by texting 9 of my guy friends to come in and fuck them, explicitly stating that they didn’t need to even try to check if it was OK and just go ahead and whip it out, that sounds like rape from every angle I can think of. I remember at that age a friend telling me a horror story about a girlfriend of hers showing up high to have consenting sex at a place and then being raped by multiple men. it’s not about who’s high and who’s a woman and after the fact deciding what it was, it was rape when she got too high to decide, and it kept being rape when they kept calling in more and more men FOR HOURS to keep raping her. if a friend of mine texted me and says ‘hay this girl is real high and do you want to come in here and fuck her, she’ll be fine with it’ I’ll go ahead and not do that. and block them. what the fuck. that’s clearly wrong on so many levels, even anonymous group sex and consensual non consent have more levels of not rape than that. this isn’t even the first time a woman has stated they were OK with several men having sex with them and then it went too far and she had no way of stopping the situation and then after hours of being in that situation she felt it was pretty clearly rape from the men’s point of view as well. if you’re involved in group sex and you don’t know what stop means or what ‘I’m tired’ or a deep sigh of not into this anymore means, or what a safeword is for, or you don’t know where their limits are, and you’ve never heard of aftercare, you aren’t kinky, you’re a fucking rapist. this ISN’T how people who do drugs and have group sex operate, everyone has limits, some people AREN’T into pain, you don’t just decide once the ball is rolling, you have to have communication and a clear way out for everyone at any second, and even a little resistance or annoyance should be significantly noticed and responded to. I managed to do this when I was high and drunk. it’s not hard, you just don’t rape people
Your logic fails miserably on the fact the the guys were drunk too. If your logic applies, she also raped them. But of course, they are male, so I guess that is not a problem in your head.
PS: Also, we as society don’t accept alcohol as an excuse in any other context. You were drunk and someone convinced you to drive? Prison for you. You were drunk and interpreted something as consent that wasn’t? Straight to prison. But you gave consent while drunk? That is everyone elses problem. The poor you can’t be responsible for your choices cause you were drunk. Everyone else needs to go to prison, for not doing alcohol and drug tests before accepting a clear “yes” as consent. Ridiculous.
she didn’t call her friends in to have sex with those guys for hours on end. they did. they weren’t high and dunk enough to fail to call in several other men to have sex with her. there’s also a legal different between choosing to do something and lacking the ability to stop other from doing something to you. again, she didn’t call in more men to fuck the guys she was using with for hours on end. I bet if she did, you’d be singing a differently tune, because logically you don’t fight for maximum victim blaming when you’re not REALLY upset women might be treated with respect a little. I hope your garbage behavior is a lack of life experience and you learn to stop being this way, if not, let’s see that rap sheet!!
You making up a different version of events from what I described and then convincing yourself I am a bad person based on that despite me clearly stating what I was referring to makes you a shitty person, not me. If she did not consent to explicit images being taken and/or distributed, those are crimes. If people she did not consent to fucked her, that is rape. No one is disputing that. You are just attacking me based on your own delusions or poor reading comprehension.
No, you’re ignoring the “and then that person says you raped them part.” There’s no indication from before, during, or after they raped her that she coerced the men into something they didn’t want.
So if the exact same thing happened and Jane Doe didn’t call it rape after, that fine? Same act, same level of ability to consent.
In reverse, you therefore also believe all the men can now sue HER for rape? Because they decided afterwards?
So you admit it’s just the regret after that makes it a rape in your mind? Besides, if it had any legal meaning, I am sure they would be saying that to get out of trouble. But it doesn’t, because that would be stupid. Someone regretting they agreed after can’t be criminal, because you have no way of knowing the future. How the fuck would you ever be able to act on consent, if that person can just change their mind later and make it a crime.
![Realization [PizzaCake]](https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/58eacea0-b255-4a2d-b579-35265a7cffee.png){kind=link}
Just so you know where the downvotes and hate are coming from; and for anyone else who doesn’t understand either: “consenting while drunk” is not consent. There’s no ‘regret it later’, since there wasn’t consent - it’s more like ‘feel regret after becoming aware of it’, but even regret is the wrong word. disgusted, violated, furious.
I don’t have immediate access to the evidence, but my understanding is that these men and/or their accomplices intentionally got this woman too drunk to resist. She was unable to competently say yes, but she was also unable to competently say no.
If you think of this and other rape cases stemming from ‘they were drunk and regretted it later’ situations as the fault of the drunk person, please go educate yourself about consent and why being intoxicated precludes it.
That’s not a good article on alcohol and consent. This is not true. Here’s a better write up on the subject.
https://bwell.brown.edu/resource/substances-and-consent
Kind of harmful to spread honestly. This is the kind of misinformation that showed up in consent talks 10-15 years ago. It really should be treated with the nuance the subject deserves so people are properly educated.
I apologize. I’m no expert on the topic, but an ally. I’ll read the link and improve my understanding.
Close, they were feeding her ketamine.
Removed by mod
Both are true. They got her drunk before the first two guys, then after the text inviting the rest of the frat to rape her was sent out, another guy forced her to take ketamine off of his dick.
I don’t know for sure what the facts here were. If she was unable to say yes/no than that is obviously rape. My understanding was that she was able to and did say no to some things (which the guys then did not do) and agreed to others. According to her own statement to the police, which seemed trustworthy to me. If that is what happened, I don’t see how it was rape. If something else happened, than it could be rape.
The police did a poor investigation including not seizing phones, and her statement is lacking detail. As per her statement there’s big memory gaps… you don’t know that she was conscious the entire time. There’s also the snapchat offering her as “free pussy” which even the men haven’t said she agreed to. There’s multiple men, she was outnumbered and heavily under the influence… Consent has to be freely given
I don’t. I never claimed I do. But I also don’t tend to say people are criminals based on things that could have happened but I don’t know if happened. I made it clear what facts I was assuming.
I didn’t read about this. If there were explicit images of her taken or distributed without consent, that is a crime. Not rape, but a reprehensible crime that they should be imprisoned for.
The first doesn’t matter (criminally speaking, not making moral judgments here), the second only if she wasn’t able to give consent.
Yes. But any coercion must actually exist, not just be in your head.
Now I wasn’t there, I don’t know if there was coercion or she passed out or anything else. But I saw nothing so far that would make me believe they raped her, even in the parts of her statement that were released. People should be presumed innocent unless proven guilty and here even the accusers statement doesn’t seem to hold much, let alone any independent evidence.
Do the gaps not raise a concern for you? And even the men don’t say she wanted the snapchat message sent, showing she didn’t consent to being offered. Abd I disagree that multiple men being in the room doesn’t matter, as it creates fear/intimidation.
No!
I am not one of the people who say you can’t possibly give consent while under the influence BUT everyone has the obligation to NOT DO anything to a person that they might not like.
If you fuck a drunk person and than that person says you raped them you did not make sure they were able to really consent.
For this specific case you don’t seem to have the empathy to understand, a person who is so drunk that they were not able to consent in the first place than them saying yes or no to specific acts has like no meaning at all.
If you have ever been blackout drunk you should be able to imagine that saying no or yes really loses all meaning in that situation.
I genuinely need people to explain to me how if a bunch of drunk and high PEOPLE fuck EACH OTHER, it’s only the woman that’s raped, and only the men that are responsible for any drunk actions.
Sex is something, in general, that you do together. Why the hell do you expect a bunch of smart judgement calls from men, but not from the woman? Unless, of course, you subscribe to the patriarchal norms that no woman could ever like “just sex”, and that sex is always something men “inflict” on women.
she wasn’t sober enough to text 9 plus of her guy friends to come in and run on train on those guys who were using with her. They were, because they did just that.
I was pretty wild in my 20s, I went to a lot of parties with a lot of drugs and alcohol and naked people, and things happened, but somehow I never raped anyone. if someone slapped me away, seemed AT ALL annoyed, I moved on, and I certainly didn’t find someone high and horny and responded by texting 9 of my guy friends to come in and fuck them, explicitly stating that they didn’t need to even try to check if it was OK and just go ahead and whip it out, that sounds like rape from every angle I can think of. I remember at that age a friend telling me a horror story about a girlfriend of hers showing up high to have consenting sex at a place and then being raped by multiple men. it’s not about who’s high and who’s a woman and after the fact deciding what it was, it was rape when she got too high to decide, and it kept being rape when they kept calling in more and more men FOR HOURS to keep raping her. if a friend of mine texted me and says ‘hay this girl is real high and do you want to come in here and fuck her, she’ll be fine with it’ I’ll go ahead and not do that. and block them. what the fuck. that’s clearly wrong on so many levels, even anonymous group sex and consensual non consent have more levels of not rape than that. this isn’t even the first time a woman has stated they were OK with several men having sex with them and then it went too far and she had no way of stopping the situation and then after hours of being in that situation she felt it was pretty clearly rape from the men’s point of view as well. if you’re involved in group sex and you don’t know what stop means or what ‘I’m tired’ or a deep sigh of not into this anymore means, or what a safeword is for, or you don’t know where their limits are, and you’ve never heard of aftercare, you aren’t kinky, you’re a fucking rapist. this ISN’T how people who do drugs and have group sex operate, everyone has limits, some people AREN’T into pain, you don’t just decide once the ball is rolling, you have to have communication and a clear way out for everyone at any second, and even a little resistance or annoyance should be significantly noticed and responded to. I managed to do this when I was high and drunk. it’s not hard, you just don’t rape people
Your logic fails miserably on the fact the the guys were drunk too. If your logic applies, she also raped them. But of course, they are male, so I guess that is not a problem in your head.
PS: Also, we as society don’t accept alcohol as an excuse in any other context. You were drunk and someone convinced you to drive? Prison for you. You were drunk and interpreted something as consent that wasn’t? Straight to prison. But you gave consent while drunk? That is everyone elses problem. The poor you can’t be responsible for your choices cause you were drunk. Everyone else needs to go to prison, for not doing alcohol and drug tests before accepting a clear “yes” as consent. Ridiculous.
she didn’t call her friends in to have sex with those guys for hours on end. they did. they weren’t high and dunk enough to fail to call in several other men to have sex with her. there’s also a legal different between choosing to do something and lacking the ability to stop other from doing something to you. again, she didn’t call in more men to fuck the guys she was using with for hours on end. I bet if she did, you’d be singing a differently tune, because logically you don’t fight for maximum victim blaming when you’re not REALLY upset women might be treated with respect a little. I hope your garbage behavior is a lack of life experience and you learn to stop being this way, if not, let’s see that rap sheet!!
You making up a different version of events from what I described and then convincing yourself I am a bad person based on that despite me clearly stating what I was referring to makes you a shitty person, not me. If she did not consent to explicit images being taken and/or distributed, those are crimes. If people she did not consent to fucked her, that is rape. No one is disputing that. You are just attacking me based on your own delusions or poor reading comprehension.
No, you’re ignoring the “and then that person says you raped them part.” There’s no indication from before, during, or after they raped her that she coerced the men into something they didn’t want.
So if the exact same thing happened and Jane Doe didn’t call it rape after, that fine? Same act, same level of ability to consent. In reverse, you therefore also believe all the men can now sue HER for rape? Because they decided afterwards?
So you admit it’s just the regret after that makes it a rape in your mind? Besides, if it had any legal meaning, I am sure they would be saying that to get out of trouble. But it doesn’t, because that would be stupid. Someone regretting they agreed after can’t be criminal, because you have no way of knowing the future. How the fuck would you ever be able to act on consent, if that person can just change their mind later and make it a crime.
consent is something that cannot be revoked days after it happened, either it was consensual when it was occurring or it wasn’t